Some General Rules For Flying

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griffo
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Some General Rules For Flying

Postby griffo » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:53 pm

Hi guys,

Have noticed in different online servers that not all are aware that there are rules for flying gliders in close proximity to each other. So, to help clear up a few of the worst offences, here are some pointers.

1. When joining a thermal, turn the same way as those that are already in it.
2. When flying, and coming head on to a glider, both gliders turn right to avoid each other. When ridge soaring, the glider with the ridge on their right, keeps going straight (of course :D )
3. When passing a glider on the ridge (same direction) always pass them on the inside, between the other glider and the ridge

That should help prevent a few collisions and close calls :D

Edit for spelling :? And to amend rule #3 :D
Last edited by griffo on Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MosGuy
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Postby MosGuy » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:33 pm

Yup these are pretty much international flight rules in most countries. Just to add a few more:

4) Higher performance glider should alter it's circle and give way to lower performance machines in thermals

5) The glider at a lower altitude has the right-of-way over one at a higher altitude

6) When converging on the same heading at aproximately the same altitiude; the glider that has the other on its right shall give way.

7) When thermaling if you lose visual contact, exit the thermal (PDA screen 1 helps here to some degree). Or I'll request altitude checks from others in the thermal to help maintain separation.

Just in general I've noticed in 'free flights' that people like to buzz the field and do low aerobatics etc. Of course this can interfere with towing procedures. Even though tugs have to give way to gliders. Right now the AI isn't 'smart' enough and secondly in RL and simming it's just polite to respect aircraft on tow and maintain a safe distance :D. This isn't standard; but when doing aerobatics or coming in for a competition finish I like to have smoke on as a warning to others around. When finished I make sure to turn the smoke off. The exception is close formation flying then smoke on all the time can help prevent a midair!.
Last edited by MosGuy on Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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desktopsimmer
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Postby desktopsimmer » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:40 pm

An Addition

Ground Traffic Rules

Joining.
When entering a task from the GUI, check by looking on the Chat Tab that no one has delcared to land, or restart, then declare that you are about to enter so that gliders can land with out collision. for instance, type "joining"
[Edit] @ Uros, GR
Maybe when the Joining User Clicks on Start (or whatever it is to get into the cockpit!) a message appears to all, "PilotX about to Enter..."

Landing.
When landing and there is a possibility of people entering the game, or restarting, declare that you are landing by typing "finals"

Restarting.
Declare that you are about to Restart by typing "restart"

On the backend of this, maybe the 'Server' user on Dedicated Server could act as Air Traffic Control if they are present :lol:
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MosGuy
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Postby MosGuy » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:56 pm

Good additions desktop,

Most people never use chat to see if anyone's on final before entering. Or not everyone radios 'final'. As for landing I tend to avoid such situations by landing to the right of the 'trimmed' strip, that way towing procedures aren't interrupted in any way.
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desktopsimmer
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Postby desktopsimmer » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:15 pm

a good 70% of my crashes have been due to glider appearing on airfield or I've appeared on the airfield and there's been a collision. The other 30% has been down to my own stupidity or I started to get ability confused with ambition :)

I started to declare my landings, if there was a chance of someone joining. I also admit I've not always been following take-off and landing daclarations, and I try to do more of in future :)
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tom-roger
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Re: Some General Rules For Flying

Postby tom-roger » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:06 am

griffo wrote:3. When passing a glider on the ridge (same direction) always pass them on the outside, never pass between the other glider and the ridge.



Hi Griffo,

I believe that this is wrong. You should allways pass between the other glider and the ridge. This is according to the international rules, I've just looked it up in my instructor-manual to be sure. This is because you don't want to put the other pilot in a difficult position, "squeezed" between you and the ridge.


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MosGuy
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Re: Some General Rules For Flying

Postby MosGuy » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:50 am

tom-roger wrote:
griffo wrote:3. When passing a glider on the ridge (same direction) always pass them on the outside, never pass between the other glider and the ridge.



Hi Griffo,

I believe that this is wrong. You should allways pass between the other glider and the ridge. This is according to the international rules, I've just looked it up in my instructor-manual to be sure. This is because you don't want to put the other pilot in a difficult position, "squeezed" between you and the ridge.
Tom-Roger


Excerpt from "Gliding" 8th Editon by Derek Piggott:

" When overtaking along the ridge, the glider overtaking must pass between the other glider and the hill so that if the other starts a turn there is no danger of a collision. Unfortunately this rule is not international. If you are flying in another country you must make sure you understand their regulations. "
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Aussiewalrus
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Postby Aussiewalrus » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:24 am

Well the way we do it over here is that the overtaking glider does so on the inside for exactly the reason you mentioned, dont want to turn into an overtaking glider.

When heading towards each other the glider with the ridge on his left gives way to the glider with the ridge on his right. Its really an extension of turning right when faced with an oncoming glider, but obviously the guy with the ridge on the right cant turn right cos he will hit the ridge!! :-)

edit: I cant believe that the rules are much different anywhere else which makes me wonder about how current people's ridge flying is! Or maybe we are getting confused with explanations. One thing though: if both gliders are trying to go outside each other then there would be some confusion! (as with the 1st post).
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griffo
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Postby griffo » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:14 am

Ah OK, will amend rule to show passing on inside. Where I have ridge soared, that is not possible as there is only 1-2 wingspans between glider and ridge. But will amend rule in my previous post for international conformity :D
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louras
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Postby louras » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:58 am

Interesting discussion...

I don't see how it would be possible to pass inside as the overtaken glider is already too close to the ridge.. However, passing outside seems dangerous as well for the reasons already stated here.
I'll have to check this with my instructor, but I took a look at the French federation's manual and it states that overtakings should be performed "au vent"...
My club's security manual however.. forbids overtakings alltogether, and probably that's the best choice...

Edit: "Au vent" means upwind, whitch means outside.. so beaware. In France the regulation is different than what's written here in the post.
However overtakings (outside) are not encouraged and are highly restricted. Another club says "You'll overtake the glider by turning upwind. But as the overtaken vehicle is also likely to turn upwind anytime, a radio contact is necessary and you will need to maintain a more than safe horizontal spacing. If security is compromised, don't overtake."

Not that all of this is a big problem for me as I don't overtake anyone :lol:

P.S. Wouldn't it be a good idea to install honks in gliders?? :)

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tom-roger
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Postby tom-roger » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:10 pm

louras wrote:Interesting discussion...
My club's security manual however.. forbids overtakings alltogether, and probably that's the best choice...

..

P.S. Wouldn't it be a good idea to install honks in gliders?? :)


I am a bit surprised that there are different rules in different countries regarding this. That's dangerous as it is a source to misunderstandings. I can not say anything else than that I agree: If you are unsure... Don't overtake the other glider. Use your radio to clear misunderstandings if a situation occur. I would highly recommend to always use the radio if you consider overtaking. That's why we got it!

We should do so even in Condor. Because the sight angle is reduced, it is more difficult to see the glider overtaking. A short message to the other glider is enough.

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griffo
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Postby griffo » Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:40 pm

The NZ Gliding regulations state: "When ridge soaring, overtake on the downwind side between the glider and the hill. If there is insufficient room, overtake well above or below, or upwind of the other glider". Most of the places I have ridge soared, you can look at the leaves on the trees to see what the wind is doing. Would be very scary to be passed up the inside!! :D 95% of the time you'll get a call saying that you are being passed on the left or right or above or below. That removes all the confusion.
Aussiewalrus, what do you mean by: "if both gliders are trying to go outside each other then there would be some confusion! (as with the 1st post)". The first post doesn't and never did say that, now you have me confused :?
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TimKuijpers
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Postby TimKuijpers » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:32 pm

louras wrote:P.S. Wouldn't it be a good idea to install honks in gliders?? :)

FLARM ;)
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MosGuy
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Postby MosGuy » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:24 pm

griffo wrote:Aussiewalrus, what do you mean by: "if both gliders are trying to go outside each other then there would be some confusion! (as with the 1st post)". The first post doesn't and never did say that, now you have me confused :?


The post orginally said to pass on the outside, that's what Aussiewalrus was replying to. The post was then modified so that it conformed to the rule that most countries follow.
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Jone
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Postby Jone » Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:02 am

MosGuy wrote:

5) The glider at a lower altitude has the right-of-way over one at a higher altitude

Hi, I don't have a pilot's license or nothing, but can this really be the case?

How can possibly the "higher" pilot see thew lower one through his planes belly?

Wouldn't it be safer that the lower one gives way?

-Jone-


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