Condor 2.0? honesty please

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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:37 pm

Flightbase wrote:I`d say that people who can develop games are capable to find a pricing system by their own.


Sure, but I assume V1 sales have been hovering around zero for a while, especially now with V2 possibly being close, so they may not have given it any thought. Thats why its not a bad idea to bring up the issue, as it appears some people might still want to buy V1, but the current full price and no upgrade path or V2 launch date, makes that a bit unreasonable. How they want to solve it, I'll leave it to them, but a solution is needed. Unless V2 is so close to being released, there is no point in buying V1, but then they should be told :)

GliderX
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby GliderX » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:09 am

janjansen wrote: it appears some people might still want to buy V1, but the current full price and no upgrade path or V2 launch date, makes that a bit unreasonable.


Like me ;) Why should I order a V1 for the full price, if a V2 is in sight? On the other hand, I would immediately preorder a V2 if V1 is included.

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Paul_UK
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Paul_UK » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:14 am

phercek wrote:
GliderX wrote:The best way they can do is, offer a preorder for V2 including V1.

I bet also that at least 50% of the community would do a preorder if they can get a nice discount, maybe 25%.

The developer would gain money, and can maybe spend more time in finishing the product.

I actually think that they should raise the initial price of Condor license if they want to maximize the income. Maybe start with 100 € (or maybe even more) for the first year. Some people here indicated that they would buy for that price. Then lower it each year by about 10 - 25 % till they do not get to 40 €. This would allow them to segment the market and pull out as much funding form it as possible. More funding is good. They may decide to reinvest it into Condor V3. Or not. But regardless it is good for them. And they do not need to be too careful about price and timely release since there is no usable competition. They have almost a monopoly.


That would be a deal breaker for me if it was priced at 100 Euros. What I do think would be worthwhile is that licenses sold to gliding clubs should be sold for a higher premium as multiple people shall be using the simulator. How this would be managed or enforced I don't know though. It would have to rely on trust from gliding clubs to purchase the appropriate license.
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phercek
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby phercek » Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:54 pm

Price around 100€ would be a deal breaker for many people. That is expected and intended. The point is that Condor has a monopoly. There is no viable alternative. Therefore they do not need to rush to market. People who are not willing to buy for 100€ could buy 5 years later for 40€. In the meantime, people who are willing to buy for 100€ can buy it as soon as it is out. That is the point. Try to segment the market so that the seller extracts the maximum revenue from it.

And really you cannot maximize revenue without market segmentation. In other words, charging each individual near to what he is willing to pay. The ideal situation would be to ask each potential buyer how much he earns a year and how much he likes gliding. The more they earn and the more they like gliding the higher the price. Of course, this cannot work because people would lie and there is no legal way to check whether they say truth. So this option is not practical.

The second common option is to segment market geographically. People living in wealthy states, e.g. Luxembourg, would pay 200 €. People lining in poorer states, e.g. Serbia would pay about 10 €. Because GDP per capita is about 20 times smaller in Serbia. Of course this is hard to enforce. Third party sellers would try to arbitrage to earn some buck (buy cheap licenses in Serbia and resell in Luxembourg). So one would need to do some kind of region locking (e.g. based on public IP address). But this is a maintenance headache and probably not worth it. You know this option very well from music and movie markets.

So you are left with the most easy option. Segment the market according to time. You just start with a high price and lower it over time. People will buy when the price reaches the point they are willing to accept. In the meantime, they can continue to sell Condor V1 for 40€ for the "cheapskates". No discount for V2 because of V1 license. This option is normally not possible because the sellers do not have monopoly or because they need cash now. But it could work for Condor.

People working in marketing/sales probably know more tricks how to maximize income.

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OXO
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby OXO » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:25 pm

OK, I will comment.

We won't be playing any of these pricing tricks with Condor.

The happiness of our loyal community is worth more than a quick buck.
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BOD1
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby BOD1 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:46 pm

This forum really miss a Like button, Chris
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EDB
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby EDB » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:15 am

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Paul_UK
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Paul_UK » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:44 am

OXO wrote:OK, I will comment.

We won't be playing any of these pricing tricks with Condor.

The happiness of our loyal community is worth more than a quick buck.


:D :D :D

I have been using Condor for many years and this year took the plunge and started flying gliders for real. I wish I'd made this decision earlier and condor proved it's worth as I flew solo by the end of a 5 day course (30 launches) :mrgreen: I would never have achieved this without Condor! It has however got me wondering whether Condor simulates wind gradient? I will assume it doesn't as you can only set one wind speed. Flying a few weeks ago was particularly entertaining in a K13 where the wind was about 10knots at ground level but 40knots a few hundred feet up.

If Condor V1 doesn't simulate wind gradient is this something that V2 will? In the likes of MS flight sim you can set wind speeds at various altitudes however when flying through the transitional layer in those it isn't always very pretty.
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby OXO » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:21 pm

OXO,
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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:35 pm

OXO wrote:OK, I will comment.

We won't be playing any of these pricing tricks with Condor.

The happiness of our loyal community is worth more than a quick buck.


If that comment is targeting phercek's convoluted scheme, then yay :)

But you do not address GliderX's genuine conundrum, which started this. Im assuming he is a student or similar, charging him full price now for condor V1, which, due to V2, may only have a use measured in weeks (hey, we can hope :) ) is a bit unreasonable IMO as once V2 is released, almost everyone and all servers will move to V2. The loyal community paid the same for something we have enjoyed for ~10 years, I dont think anyone of us will feel cheated if the price is lowered, or an upgrade path provided to new customers. I think we all want more pilots!

Of course he can wait for V2, but why not give him a way to get started using V1 now?

My 2 cents

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby GliderX » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:43 pm

OXO wrote:OK, I will comment.
The happiness of our loyal community is worth more than a quick buck.


Wow, so you will give it away for free? :mrgreen:

As I already said, developers are not very good in selling their own products ;)

You are doing a great job as developers, so don't misunderstand me, I don't want to be offend!

I'll wait for V2...

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby OXO » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:25 pm

There is no release date for V2, so if there will be a deal for late buyers of V1 is impossible to know.
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phercek
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby phercek » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:55 pm

janjansen wrote:If that comment is targeting phercek's convoluted scheme, then yay :)

Hohooo, that is not my "convoluted scheme". That is what many industries do. Trying to close eyes before it will not help. It is also not all wrong. Notice that these schemes allow to buy by people for whom even 40 € is too much. Strict (never changing) price of e.g. 40 € automatically prices out people from poor countries. But it is good for people from wealthy countries.

Market segmentation is all around us. Why all the big data companies (and all the snooping of web user behaviour) happens? This is the reason. It allows companies to segment market better. E.g. people browsing web on Apple products are known to be willing to pay a bit more. Some companies even give them slightly higher quotes. Though that is bit dangerous from the public relations point of view. So most companies opt for a slightly more covered approach: e.g. people browsing from an iPhone will get advertisements for slightly more expensive substitutes (a different product, providing essentially the same functionality, but slightly more expensive).

If somebody can get sad about "convoluted price schemes" then they must have tough life nowadays. Because it is all around us. Do you browse web with cookies enabled? Do you buy sometimes music, a movie? Do you fill your Steam wish list and buy with discount on Steam sale? Do you check out discount coupons in newspapers? All these things are about ways to maximize company incomes. They put the base price slightly bigger and then try to attract poorer customers on "discounts" to earn something form them too.

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Paul_UK
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Paul_UK » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:14 am

OXO wrote:http://forum.condorsoaring.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4209


Interesting read if that link was intended for myself. I would agree with everything said too. I was fortunate to already have rudder pedals. Like Mac I was also given no instruction on using thermals but after years of flying RC gliders in fields and using condor on my 7th solo flight the weather finally turned soarable and I had a 38min flight in the old K13. Not the most comfortable of things and it was a busy day in the sky above my airfield. I'm still conscious every flight that I have much more experience to gain however, there's no substitute for that! I wish I could have spent more than 5 days in a row at the airfield but I'm progressing OK visiting once a week.

It didn't answer my question as to whether the weather engine will be better in V2 and include wind gradient or not? Out of the differences in real world to V1 wind gradient is the part I think V2 would benefit most from having from.
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby JCK » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:59 am

If for no other reason than to keep this thread 'active'....

Condor got me into RW gliding about 8 years ago. As a current PPL and ex-hang glider pilot (and full-time instructor), stumbling across Condor at that time as I did, was a revelation. After some practice, like many of you, I delved into Speedbattle online comps. We should salute the original organisers for their efforts, as along with VATSIM and IVAO, it allowed us the unique opportunity to share the sim skies with real individuals and not just sterile AI sim traffic.
A visit to the local club (BFGC) resulted that I was hooked. The effort and commitment to work through the system was well worth it, and only thanks to the ongoing efforts of the volunteers that make gliding clubs work. I'm no hot-shot - but after Silver I went on to join a brilliant ASW24 syndicate and have enjoyed some superb flying throughout the UK and abroad.
I think all flight training organisations now recognise the benefits that good flight simulation can bring - especially those like gliding that tend to be seasonal (dependant on where we operate!). Maintaining 'currency' is certainly intrinsically linked to safety. Accidents do happen, as sadly witnessed here in the UK in this last week when two of our brothers perished - the very experienced youtube hero 'Balleka' and another pilot at HusBos (following an alleged mid-air with a GA aircraft).
Whilst we patiently(?) wait for V2, we should consider our plight:

1. There is no real software competitor - but in a potential 'kickstarter' market, no developer can rely upon resting on one's laurels for too long!
2. The market is limited when compared to the general 'gaming' sector - however, anyone who has experienced good flight sim in VR (DCS World in particular), will perceive the huge potential for developing sims market to the n'th degree.
3. Developing Condor is performed on a part-time basis?
4. Pricing - like any other business, supply/demand, market size/potential, will ultimately prevail. I suspect 'tiered' pricing is a non-starter (except the opportunity to gain pre-orders).

So, whilst we're largely stuck with the current situation. I have faith that the devs know what they're doing - but PLEASE reward our patience by giving us some TEASER and insight as to what we might expect. A significant gap between 'it's on it's way' and no teaser isn't reassuring to the community!


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