Multi Monitor Support

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sisu1a
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby sisu1a » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:13 am

Assuming there's no native solutions, anyone that is sufficiently bothered by this issue can use 3rd party warping solutions like people use for curved screen projector setups.

http://www.nthusim.com/

Warplizer is another option http://www.warpalizer.com/en/

Pixelwix is another http://pixelwix.com/

There's a guy in New Zealand that makes these really nice prefab curved screen projector kits, 180deg for dual projectors or 270deg for 3... apparently he also has a warping/blending tool:

http://www.simpit.co.nz/index.php/featu ... simpitwarp

I think there's some freeware stuff out there as well but I'm not sure how it compares, but this seemed relevant to this discussion unless I'm missing something. Carry on.

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby Slartibartfast » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:23 am

sisu1a wrote:Assuming there's no native solutions, anyone that is sufficiently bothered by this issue can use 3rd party warping solutions
...
but this seemed relevant to this discussion unless I'm missing something. Carry on.


Indeed it is relevant and if that's the solution we have to use to 'patch up' the official rendering that's what we'll (try) and do but it does come with compromises.

If I understand correctly one issue with applying these 'fix filters' is that they come much later in the rendering pipeline so you end up discarding some of the pixels of the original rendered image and stretch out others. The result is most definitely an improvement however it wastes the rendering work done on those discarded pixels and results in a lower effective resolution in the areas that are enlarged —or at least that's been my understanding. Although sub-optimal the results are still pretty good and there is indeed a wealth of knowledge from people a lot smarter than you and I (or at least a lot smarter than me :P) who have been working on this for years, and there most definitely has been a lot of good done work in this area.

janjansen
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby janjansen » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:02 am

sisu1a wrote:Assuming there's no native solutions, anyone that is sufficiently bothered by this issue can use 3rd party warping solutions like people use for curved screen projector setups.


There is a limit to what you can do after rendering. If you look at my triple screen screenshot, if you where to warp that so it looks reasonable, it wouldnt even half of my side screens. Im guessing the "post warp" screen would look like an ellipse, covering most of my center screen, but just small parts of my side screens. The FOV of what condor renders just isnt wide enough, so its not really a solution here, even ignoring the price tag :shock: on these tools.

phercek
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby phercek » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:04 pm

I heard only about planar rendering support directly in AMD/nVidia hardware. But most of the pipeline is programmable so it can be added with overhead (as outerra does).

Condor2 support for multiple monitors was stated. There was no indication that V2 will support anything than single camera, single planar render screen. Though the planar render screen can be split on multiple physical monitors using eyefinity/surround. It would be also unwise from developers to try to add support for multiple cameras or cylindrical rendering now when in alpha stage (if it is not already added).

People who want to have big FOVs without distortion can compensate with big 4K screens (at least 55"). 55"-65" TVs are not that expensive. A VGA with HDMI2 support are available too. Then one can have big FOV, and match real FOV with rendering FOV, and still not tire eyes with monitor being too close.
From this point of view, it would be good to know what kind of multiple monitor support will be in V2. People could decide whether to buy one big screen or multiple smaller screens. The best is just to forget about Condor till V2 is actually released. Then you will know what kind of your "simulation cockpit" makes sense to build. And the big 4K screens will probably get cheaper by that time. It is wasteful to invest in it now when you do not know what CondorV2 can support.

timbaeyens
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby timbaeyens » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:49 pm

https://www.flawlesswidescreen.org although condor is not supported - strange huh

sisu1a
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby sisu1a » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:30 pm

janjansen wrote:
sisu1a wrote:Assuming there's no native solutions, anyone that is sufficiently bothered by this issue can use 3rd party warping solutions like people use for curved screen projector setups.


There is a limit to what you can do after rendering. If you look at my triple screen screenshot, if you where to warp that so it looks reasonable, it wouldnt even half of my side screens. Im guessing the "post warp" screen would look like an ellipse, covering most of my center screen, but just small parts of my side screens. The FOV of what condor renders just isnt wide enough, so its not really a solution here, even ignoring the price tag :shock: on these tools.


The pricetags on them are indeed high, but I'm pretty sure you're overthinking the rest. People use these for pretty demanding applications, including professional flight simulation and people are even playing twitch fps games on them. While there is likely some sort of penalty for this, images corrected this way look extremely sharp and good in applications that make it work harder than fair weather flight in slow motion with long view distances would.

There might be cut down versions as well, since you have no need for edge blending and are doing just basic distortion correction and the ones I linked are really geared towards projection's special needs. I see Flawlesswidescreen is already linked but there's this one as well:

https://github.com/dlrudie/WidescreenFi ... g/Original

janjansen
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby janjansen » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:35 pm

sisu1a wrote:The pricetags on them are indeed high, but I'm pretty sure you're overthinking the rest. People use these for pretty demanding applications, including professional flight simulation and people are even playing twitch fps games on them.


Im sure these apps work great when you use them for things like warping and mixing 3 projectors on a curved display, but only if your simulator can render a wide enough FOV - or achieve the same through multiple viewports. 'High end' flight sims will generally do this, but condor V1 cant do either. You cant warp what isnt first rendered.

sisu1a
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby sisu1a » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:51 am

I thought this pertained to Condor2 since it was split out of that thread, which will be DX11 so would have no problem pushing the pixels and I'm sure will have fov options suitable for the range of displays commonly used. You're probably familiar with widescreen gaming forum, but there's a bunch of folk there that know quite a bit about this specific niche if not.

http://www.wsgf.org/forums

janjansen
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Re: Multi Monitor Support

Postby janjansen » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:14 pm

I feel we're going in circles.

DX11 doesnt help here. When running dgvoodoo, V1 for all intents and purposes becomes a DX11 app, supporting multiple monitors, 3D video etc. That doesnt help with this.

Adjustable FOV, with or without thrid party warping tools, isnt a solution either. Let me explain with images. Here is a direct screenshot (yes, I fly on mars):

Image

I then ran that screenshot through an app called Hugin to correct the perspective, from rectilinear to cylindrical, much like those $500 apps would do:

Image

That looks great perspective wise, but more than half my monitors are now filled with white. How do you get rid of that? To get rid of most of it, you have to zoom in by a factor ~2X. If you do that, you reduce your pixel resolution by a factor 4, and your effective FOV is now half what it was too, with the instrument panel filling the center screen vertically. Such small FOV may work on shooter games, perhaps even racing games, but not in a flight sim like condor. I wouldnt be able to see the wingtip and instrument panel in one shot, so not even 90 degree, despite having 3 monitors that span an actual ~90 degree around me. If anything, I probably want an even wider FOV than what we have now, certainly not half what we have now and less than 1:1.

But you say, V2 will presumably allow changing the game's FOV. Does that help? Not really. Imagine by how much you would have to increase the game FOV, to make sure it actually renders the area's that are now white. You'd have to double it or so. The increased FOV will increase the distortion more than proportionally, making the above problem of reduced effective resolution after warping it back far, far worse. Think sub VGA quality.

Of course you can trade off zoom with FOV, but its always going to be a bad compromise, and frankly, no better than what we have with V1.

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MarkS
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby MarkS » Tue May 16, 2017 5:17 am

janjansen wrote:Slartibartfast was really talking about multiple viewport rendering, so that angled monitors or projectors dont look as stretched and distorted.




Actually , using v1 , Condor doesn't distort or stretch too badly so long as you use 3 monitors that are in 3:4 aspect ratio. So if you use a custom resolution of 640 X 1920 with each monitor running 640 X 480 the three monitor distortion is low . However DX7 doesn't seem to support the 3 monitor split at 16:9 per monitor so it syncs each monitor at 3:4 then stretches the view on each one and you have the results as shown in the photo. You cannot have an overall resolution in width more than 2048. Years ago I got a good experince using two 3:4 monitors at 1024 X768 , which I had at an angle to each other and then just set cockpit centre a bit to the right of the center line so instruments not cut in half. Still this felt much more imersive than a single montitor.

timbaeyens
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby timbaeyens » Tue May 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Hi Mark,

Please have a look at both these threads, using dgvoodoo dx11 wrapper does allow to fly in condor with higher resolution/multiple monitors:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17192
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16821&p=149688#p149688

Cheers,
T


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