Multi Monitor Support

Discussion related to the Condor...

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Slartibartfast
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Multi Monitor Support

Postby Slartibartfast » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:53 am

Wow, I am delighted to hear there is movement on this front.

I am yet to become a flyer in the condor environment but am in the process of designing a Sim Pit with condor in particular in mind. One thing that will be of particular interest for me is how Condor 2 will manage multiple monitors. While having a large canvas that can be stretched across multiple monitors would be great what I personally would love to see would be a method to specify multiple camera views then assign each view to a different monitor. The idea being that rather than 'extending' the view across multiple monitors one could specify the exact viewing parameters they wish to have displayed on each monitor such that you could custom design your monitor layout and then hand craft views to fit them exactly.

So that one could make a setup something like this:
Image

Or this:
Image

Man, if that kind of configuration could be made available it would be absolutely magical!
Last edited by Slartibartfast on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Paul_UK
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Paul_UK » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:09 pm

Slartibartfast. Whilst a multi monitor setup provides a solution to achieve a better viewing perspective when using a simulator I think now that VR is maturing it'll be the way forward in the simulator world. It's more immersive, takes up less space, uses less power etc. I see multi monitor setups becoming a thing of the past very soon!
Bronze by Spring......I hope!
Bronze C completed 3-4-2017 - Hoping worked :mrgreen:

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Slartibartfast » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:47 pm

Sure, but as a wise man once said "It scares the willies out of me" :P.

Potentially I agree, but both have their place. While I agree that VR setups do provide a more immersive experience there are advantages to regular monitors too. Just as VR goggles will never become the medium for working on office spreadsheets old fashioned monitors will always have a place in the flight sim market because, well, immersion isn't necessarily everything.

While I find the VR experience extremely exhilarating I also find it tiresome after a time. If I were to embark on a multi hour cross country expedition I dare say I'd prefer to be looking at monitors after a while rather than experiencing that full tilt immersion all the way. Perhaps I'm just old but while I find VR incredably intoxicating at first after about 20 minutes of wearing I find myself just wanting to pull them off to take a nice big breath of reality 1.0 again. You know, there is only so much of this "Oh my God, this is just incredible!" I can handle before I want to be able to see my own hands again — or perhaps I'm just old :?

phercek
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby phercek » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:35 pm

I predict that VR goggles are going to be as popular as 3D movies, i.e. not much.

They are still quite heavy at about 0.5 kg. There are discrepancies between accelerations reported by the inner ear and the visual feedback (maybe some kind of moving chair which simulates acceleration can help here). There is also a difference at which distance eyes focus and the distance the objects are shown in VR (this can be fixed with some adaptive optics). The result is that VR goggles are causing nausea for many people. I doubt VR will get any significant use in the near time. It still needs more development.

HornetSk
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby HornetSk » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:25 pm

You are not right...VR , 3D and sims is huge difference..we will see here in 10 years..
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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:05 am

If I read steam hardware survey correctly, currently about 0.25% of gamers own a VR set. And about 1/3 have multiple monitors. So multimonitor is >100x more popular. Those numbers will change of course, but Id be extremely surprised if the # of VR sets overtakes multiple monitors in the next 10 years. In fact, Id be surprised if it reaches 1/10th of multimonitor's market penetration.

I might buy a VR set one day, but Im completely with Slartibartfast on this; I like having 3 large monitors (for productivity mostly), but I dont necessarily want to be cut off the world completely by wearing a VR set for hours at a time. I like to eat, drink, check my phone, look at out the window, interact with people in the house or the kick the cat once in a while. Its a very similar reason for why I prefer a twist rudder joystick over pedals: of course pedals are more realistic, possibly even give better control. But when flying a sim,I like to be able to put my feet on my desk, or tuck them under my legs and relax a bit.

For a short immersive experience, say a quick dog fight or something, I may prefer a VR set. For a several hours long experience, I dont see that happening anytime soon.

primitive_6
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby primitive_6 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:17 pm

It's too early to talk about VR. Even Austin Meyer (creator and developer of Xplane) was impressed when he tried VR with the Xplane but he said that there is a lot of work to implant something like this in simulators.
Don't forget also that you have to spent a lot of time in simulators (some people spend more than a couple of hours for just a flight). So, at this time it's impossible to do it with a VR (most of the people are getting dizzy after 30-45 minutes of using VR without a break).
And the most important issue is that you can't see buttons of joystick or keyboard. For condor this is not a problem but for other flight sims it's huge (trust me...its annoying to put on and off your VR set every 10 minutes) :mrgreen:

stevemyall
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby stevemyall » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:38 pm

primitive_6

Do you have a source to confirm your statement ''most of the people are getting dizzy after 30-45 minutes of using VR without a break''? Its at odds with my own experience. Is this something you experience yourself?

HornetSk
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby HornetSk » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:31 pm

"And the most important issue is that you can't see buttons of joystick or keyboard"

https://flyinside-fsx.com/
Image

stevemyall
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby stevemyall » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:22 pm

I also like to eat, drink, check my phone, look at out the window, interact with people in the house or the kick cats once in a while.
I stream games to my TV and sit on my sofa with a gamepad for that.

For my sim flying - I want to be totally immersed. I make a date with my shed, jump into my VR simpit and lock the door. No Cats No People and no Windows.

I hope Condor 2 makes it to my shed!

Doggy
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Doggy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:31 am

Could not stay quiet here. Be careful with the VR and Condor or any other sim ...
I'm sure using it for long period of time will harm your sight. Why? Even if it can simulate 3D world/space it still can not simulate it with all aspects. I'm referring to a need to focus on objects in real 3D world. Your eye optics need to adjust every time when you move your focus from close to distant objects and vice versa. It's because of beams of light come from slightly different angle depending on object's distance so your eye optics need to adjust to direct those beams again to a focal point. Best example are 3D movies (not ones completely animated by PC). If there's something blurry, your eye have no chance to focus on such object. It's given by used camera optics for the particular scene (apperature, focal length,...) This can harm your sight in long term as well. In 3D PC games, situation is opposite. Usually everything is sharp so your eye don't need to engage focusing. Yes, it's same on 2D monitor however your brain is not being convinced so hard it is real 3D world. And also you still have chance to look somewhere else, beside the monitor. That occasional look somewhere else is very important exercise when looking at monitor over long period of time (work, playing games). Your eyes need to exercise same way as your body needs. So over time you have better chance not to damage your sight when using monitor(s).

Despite I'm huge fan of VR, I'm never going to use it for longer playing or use it regularly.
My point is that due to facts above the VR is great for short and occasional experience. Definitely not for long and regular use.

PS: Desperately looking fw on Condor V2 :)
Image

primitive_6
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby primitive_6 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:52 am

stevemyall wrote:primitive_6

Do you have a source to confirm your statement ''most of the people are getting dizzy after 30-45 minutes of using VR without a break''? Its at odds with my own experience. Is this something you experience yourself?


Well there are quite few papers that proves that but till now there is no any research that shows correlation between all factors that cause this issue. If you are a student in university then maybe you have access in these papers. If you don't have access then you can read just the abstract of them.
You can find them through the google scholar. I suggest you to look for "Combating VR sickness through subtle dynamic field-of-view modification" and "Virtual reality therapy". And of course you are right on some point because this depends on the person that he is using the VR. For example I get dizzy easily after 15-20 min.

HornetSk wrote:"And the most important issue is that you can't see buttons of joystick or keyboard"

https://flyinside-fsx.com/


Well...this is just a solution to have better interaction with the buttons of the cockpit. And of course this doesn't work so well. For example if you want to switch a button you have to move really close to it. And except this, a lot of simulators needs to have an external display with different software running, like Condor and XCsoar (in order to solve this problem you have to integrate the xcsoar into the condor which is something that might be not possible).

In the end, I just want to say that of course the VR is the future but its really too early to talk about this and there is a looot of work till they solve all these problems like the things that Doggy said before.

stevemyall
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VR discussion

Postby stevemyall » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:37 am

Doggy

Thanks for your concearn. I never considered that my eyes lenses weren't changing focus continually. It feels like they are but I guess this is the changing binocular convergence my eyes feel when looking at near and far objects. After some brief research, I understand VR optics focus your eyes lenses at infinity which is a relaxed state. The same as you experience for long periods whilst asleep?
I did experience an 'adjustment' phase early on where I would loose focus briefly, but that's gone. Perhaps the damage is done, or perhaps my brain has adapted to it as I have not noticed any ill effects.

Primitive

The first article was interesting but based on pre-release hardware. The research shows most people tested got nausea after 30-40mins but they specifically dismissed the people that had no ill effects.

As condor and VR is a niche within a niche. No one will get rich by supporting it. I suspect the Devs may implement VR based on their own experiences of it or believe in its potential in the coming years. I would love to know what their thoughts and experiences are?

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Slartibartfast » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:17 am

Huh, was just looking up how X-Plane handles multi-monitor support and it looks like X-Plane 11 basically does exactly this:
Image
That is they allow a user to set up multiple 'cameras' then allow those camera views to be positioned wherever the pilot wishes, pretty much exactly what I was hoping Conrore 2.0 might do.

Here's a video describing how to set up such an environment in X-Plane, and I have to say it looks spectacular!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7LfXqpi-I8
Last edited by Slartibartfast on Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Slartibartfast » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:18 am

Apparently X-Plane only allow one "camera location" though, meaning although the cameras can look in different directions they all have to be located at the same point in space. This isn't too much of a problem as when you're setting up multiple monitors you usually want each monitor to display what the pilot would see if they were to look in the direction of that monitor, meaning all cameras would be located at the location of the pilots eye, but it does mean X-Plane won't allow a second monitor to display a co-pilots view or let you set up one screen as a 'chase-view' or anything. But it's still pretty AWESOME!!!


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