Word of advice on making use of thermals?

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Freebird
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby Freebird » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:51 am

Mr Tumnus, just out of interest how many P1 hours do you have?

Mr. Ike
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby Mr. Ike » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:12 pm

MrTumnus wrote:
Mr. Ike wrote:Altering your circle EVERY turn is a bad thing to do. Center, make a few turns and observe what happens, center again and make a few turns, etc.

If you alter your circle every turn there is no way to know hot the thermal looks and where you are exactly. You NEED to make a few complete turns with constant bank and speed to know what is going on.

There is not a single pilot in the world who can keep his plane exactly centered. Very important is to keep the plane on a constant bank and a speed. staying exactly centered is only possible on exactly circular thermals of constant vertical speed and distribution around the core. (IE the none existent ideal thermal)


The kind of thing I meant is if you fly into a much weaker bit of lift on the western side of the thermal on one revoloution, straighten up for a few seconds flying east and then continue the turn. I'm not sure that I agree with keeping the bank constant, as often you'll have to straighten out in one direction or tighten the turn when in stringest lift.


After your first adjustment you should be in the center of the thermal and you shouldn't have to adjust anymore for a few turns. If you are not centered after the first adjustment, practice on getting that one right. The problem is that you will never manage to make that adjustment exactly right and exactly the same every turn. And a thermal is never constant in shape and lift, meaning your adjustments would have to be different on each turn. BUT if you keep altering your circle you will never know how to alter your adjustments to stay centered in the thermal, resulting in you drifting out of the thermal twice as fast. Believe me, I have tried both methods in RL and there is no way to make adjustments every turn without flying out of the thermal. I've flown with some very experienced pilots, and they all keep a constant circle for atleast 2 or 3 turns before making the next adjustment. (One racing pilot even told me that when you find a lift at low altitude it is best not to adjust at all until youve gained some altitude. If its going up its going up! You can worry about getting that 0.1 m/s average extra when you don't have to worry about landing out)

MrTumnus
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby MrTumnus » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:32 pm

Mr. Ike wrote:
MrTumnus wrote:
Mr. Ike wrote:Altering your circle EVERY turn is a bad thing to do. Center, make a few turns and observe what happens, center again and make a few turns, etc.

If you alter your circle every turn there is no way to know hot the thermal looks and where you are exactly. You NEED to make a few complete turns with constant bank and speed to know what is going on.

There is not a single pilot in the world who can keep his plane exactly centered. Very important is to keep the plane on a constant bank and a speed. staying exactly centered is only possible on exactly circular thermals of constant vertical speed and distribution around the core. (IE the none existent ideal thermal)


The kind of thing I meant is if you fly into a much weaker bit of lift on the western side of the thermal on one revoloution, straighten up for a few seconds flying east and then continue the turn. I'm not sure that I agree with keeping the bank constant, as often you'll have to straighten out in one direction or tighten the turn when in stringest lift.


After your first adjustment you should be in the center of the thermal and you shouldn't have to adjust anymore for a few turns. If you are not centered after the first adjustment, practice on getting that one right. The problem is that you will never manage to make that adjustment exactly right and exactly the same every turn. And a thermal is never constant in shape and lift, meaning your adjustments would have to be different on each turn. BUT if you keep altering your circle you will never know how to alter your adjustments to stay centered in the thermal, resulting in you drifting out of the thermal twice as fast. Believe me, I have tried both methods in RL and there is no way to make adjustments every turn without flying out of the thermal. I've flown with some very experienced pilots, and they all keep a constant circle for atleast 2 or 3 turns before making the next adjustment. (One racing pilot even told me that when you find a lift at low altitude it is best not to adjust at all until youve gained some altitude. If its going up its going up! You can worry about getting that 0.1 m/s average extra when you don't have to worry about landing out)


Hmmm. I understand the last bit you mentioned about the lower down thermalling, but they probably also told you that you need to thermal as efficiently as possible to fly fast , and I fly often with a very good pilot, who says if necessary, you should adjust the turn whenever you have to (Be it once every minute or so, or every turn). Next time I fly, once all this crappy weather goes , I'll try filming it and I'll show you what I mean ;)
Last edited by MrTumnus on Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrTumnus
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby MrTumnus » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:33 pm

Freebird wrote:Mr Tumnus, just out of interest how many P1 hours do you have?


That's not the point :lol: But, I understand most of you guys have got a fair bit of experience, so I'll try what you guys are saying next time I fly ;)

Russell
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby Russell » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:20 pm

After your first adjustment you should be in the center of the thermal and you shouldn't have to adjust anymore for a few turns.

I dont think even the GB gliding team is that good :lol: if you manage to center on your 1st adjustment it is just LUCK :wink: and we all get lucky sometimes.

If you are going up who cares where in the thermal you are.I only fly for fun and to get away from the wife :D
Does it realy matter if you are 1/2 a knot away from max climb SIT BACK MELLOW AND ENJOY thats what gliding is all about :wink:

Russell

MrTumnus
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby MrTumnus » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:13 pm

Russell wrote:After your first adjustment you should be in the center of the thermal and you shouldn't have to adjust anymore for a few turns.

I dont think even the GB gliding team is that good :lol: if you manage to center on your 1st adjustment it is just LUCK :wink: and we all get lucky sometimes.

If you are going up who cares where in the thermal you are.I only fly for fun and to get away from the wife :D
Does it realy matter if you are 1/2 a knot away from max climb SIT BACK MELLOW AND ENJOY thats what gliding is all about :wink:

Russell


Yeah, you've got to draw a line between getting the best out of the thermal and making it hard work for yourself ;)

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congo
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby congo » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 am

Andrzej Czop wrote:Many years ago (20?) I made device whose idea of logic is below at picture.
This worked well and even better than today's GPS devices :lol: 8) , because we knew which direction we should started circulate before entering to the lift. There was one problem - sensor temperature compensation. If the temperature dropped ~10 degrees or more, the device will detuning, because the temperature difference was small and limited sensory perfection ...

Now we have a much more perfect sensors, so if anyone interested, I send my device schema. Of course it will not work in Condor :lol:

edit: I thought that my idea maybe unclear, so Sl & Sr means tendency (trend) of temperature at the end of wings. Device points the way to the lift before we enter to him. It's like a thermalhelper - I'm not sure if it would be legal to use :wink: :lol:
It also allows you to avoid the areas of sinking air at gliding section.
If lift is centered, the display looks like a case of 3 (left cyrcling) or 7 (right cyrcling)

Regards
Andrzej


I am interested, so if you still read this thread, yes, send the schema please :)
Image

RodNoc123
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby RodNoc123 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Andrzej Czop wrote:Many years ago (20?) I made device whose idea of logic is below at picture.
This worked well and even better than today's GPS devices :lol: 8) , because we knew which direction we should started circulate before entering to the lift. There was one problem - sensor temperature compensation. If the temperature dropped ~10 degrees or more, the device will detuning, because the temperature difference was small and limited sensory perfection ...

Now we have a much more perfect sensors, so if anyone interested, I send my device schema. Of course it will not work in Condor :lol:

edit: I thought that my idea maybe unclear, so Sl & Sr means tendency (trend) of temperature at the end of wings. Device points the way to the lift before we enter to him. It's like a thermalhelper - I'm not sure if it would be legal to use :wink: :lol:
It also allows you to avoid the areas of sinking air at gliding section.
If lift is centered, the display looks like a case of 3 (left cyrcling) or 7 (right cyrcling)

Regards
Andrzej


I would be interested in the device schema as well. Thanks!

flyingcopey
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby flyingcopey » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:45 am

Simple solution use ridge lift its much easier on the mountain scenery of condor. Howwever real world I use thermaling and there usually not as far between them I find here in the uk at least where I fly compared to condor.
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Beast of Yucca
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby Beast of Yucca » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:08 pm

Speed control is the key to thermalling at the best rate of climb. You should be able to thermal at a constant 55 kts or less in the LS8. In Condor use the thermal screen on your pda and maintain red dots for the entire circle, with the goal being to achieve the highest average, indicated by the number in that PDA screen in red. Find the center, circle around it at a constant speed, maximize your climb rate, that's it!

oldbear
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby oldbear » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:43 am

I am also only a Condor pilot, but hope to fly soon.

(Real) pilots, is there a way to feel a thermal; is there any feedback when entering a thermal that you can use to determine where the center of lift is likely to be?

I seems to me that is you feel lift and one wing rises the center of lift should be on the lifting side, in other words, turn into the rising wing tip.
Also, since north of the equator coriolis force makes thermals spiral clockwise is there a preferred side or direction to turn in (turn left or turn right)?

Or is this thermal flying lesson 1?

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OXO
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby OXO » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:20 am

Try this..
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OXO,
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oldbear
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Re: Word of advice on making use of thermals?

Postby oldbear » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:37 am

Thanks! Just what I was looking for.


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