Copyright protection of sceneries

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GregHart1965
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Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby GregHart1965 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:26 pm

Will there be any support for validation of sceneries in V2. I do realise a lot of scenery developers do it purely for the fun of it, clearly money is not an issue to them. I, on the other hand, would like to see a return for my efforts. The donation response through Thierry' site was very poor, so I am considering setting up a site to rather sell the sceneries. This would be, however, pointless if there is no way of protecting the work.

What I want is a way to link a scenery to a specific machine via a unique ID code that would be linked to that computers IP (or whatever) so that it only runs on that machine. There would also need to be some way that this gets checked by servers running that scenery. Has any consideration been given to this at all?

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OXO
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby OXO » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:01 pm

AFAIK, it's not been requested before.

I will discuss with Uros, and see what he thinks.
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GregHart1965
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby GregHart1965 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:51 pm

It could be something simple from the servers side like a quick check online with my sites database that the scenery is valid.

possibly initial installation of the scenery could handle the purchase validation and a list of valid IP's kept on record. Im not a coder so can only imagine what is possible. The trick would be to have a check built in so that it was checked before the scenery loads. This could conceivably be something built into the scenery itself rather than Condor?

I will discuss this with friend who does IT for banks and let you know his input.

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Jan Oorthuijsen
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby Jan Oorthuijsen » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:09 pm

Condor would never have become what it is today without the large group of free scenerymakers.
There are a lot of people for whom the issue to buy Condor already has a threshold. And this will be so again with the purchase of V2.
If they have to pay in the future for a scenery many people will drop out if there is a pay-scenery used in online contest.
In my circle of acquaintances this already happens in payment sceneries.
The CST is a free app that we can use, I do not find it fit to ask for money for something I develop as a hobby with this free app.
It is then uploaded to the Condor Club site for free; paying a small amount for a membership seems normal to me, the server must be paid.
Over the last 10 years I designed three secneries myself, two of which I unfortunately can not publish due to texture copyrights. Furthermore, I created many 3D objects for other sceneries and spent about in total 5000 hours, possibly more.
If there has to be paid for a scenery then it must have a guaranteed quality (no visible tileseams, no clouds, color difference and sharpness). I spent hundreds of hours on the color correction.
So I think that no money should be asked for a sceney, it should be a hobby and stay that way. And I think it is better for the survival of Condor and our online contest community

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Jan

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GregHart1965
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby GregHart1965 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:37 pm

Jan you are obviously entitled to your opinion. There are already scenery makers who produce professional sceneries that they charge for. I am unfortunately not in a financial position to justify putting in this many hours for free. Should I decide to not make sceneries then there is one less scenery developer producing things which is also not good for the game of Condor.

I dont believe that people who can afford a computer and joystick and afford to spend hours each week 'playing Condor' cannot afford ten Euro to buy a scenery.

I do very much understand the spirit of volunteering tbat has built gliding as a sport. But it goes both ways. It seems that most people just take what they can for free and dont consider how much effort someone has put in to bring that to them. They think nothing of spending that money in a bar in a matter of minutes but when it comes to volunteering the same amount to encourage the development of something that will give them hours and hours of entertainment suddenly they cant afford it??

I hoped that people would be more generous but experience proves otherwise.

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phil_delaine
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby phil_delaine » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:58 pm

Hi,

The donation response through Thierry' site was very poor,

This was quite expected ! Generally people is more eager to take than to give and CONDOR pilots are the same.
If you make a non-free scenery, it will not be used. That is a fact, look at other sceneries with a price tag, even if there are really amazing!
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pstrzel
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby pstrzel » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:02 am

I always thought that scenery makers were masochists and the pain they derived from the process was enough payment :lol:.

Just FWIW, the satisfaction you get from giving freely is much better than dealing with the dissatisfaction of not being properly compensated. That's why I never asked for donations -- I didn't want to know just how stingy everyone is :wink:.
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GregHart1965
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby GregHart1965 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:58 am

Haha yes, I am again disappointed by the nature of some people and also impressed by nature of others who give freely of themselves. Such is this crazy world we live in.

At this stage I am still thinking about all of this and undecided which route to take. I really enjoy making sceneries and particilarly the objects for them, yet I am rather poor and under a lot of pressure from family to bring home the bucks! Maybe it will just mean that my scenery making will just happen a lot slower as money earning activities take priority. I like the idea of community expressed by Jan.

Oh well onward through the fog....

David R
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby David R » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:45 am

I made over 6 different sceneries for condor. They were used by many contests and were down loaded over 10,000 times. Each scenery took 100's of hours and cost me real money to make. I've always been disappointed with the lack of respect I have received by those who feel they are entitled to free sceneries. I have no interest in charging for my sceneries but I don't feel that people should act like they have a right to free sceneries. If some one wants to charge for a scenery, great! Don't complain just because you can't have it for free. That said, most of the sceneries being made right now are in violation of copyright laws. This use to be a big deal, but now no one seems to care.
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phercek
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby phercek » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:38 am

GregHart1965 wrote:possibly initial installation of the scenery could handle the purchase validation and a list of valid IP's kept on record. Im not a coder so can only imagine what is possible.

Well, tying it to an IP address definitely will not work. Most of the internet users are on dynamic IPs. That means the IP (as seen from outside) of the same user are changing from time to time. On the other side, the internal IP can be set easily to something else.
Your only easy options (that I know of) are:
  • Serial numbers. And hopefully people will not share them. If they do then you can kick people with the same number from an online server. But you cannot really do much about the serial number sharing when people play offline. Well, except when you require internet connection to your server even when playing single player offline. But how many people would buy your scenery in such a case?
  • Hardware hashes. User can register his license to his hardware. Not sure how many users will accept when they cannot move the installation from one computer to another computer of theirs. What about when they replace a broken VGA, or motherboard, or update CPU?
  • An USB dongle. This works pretty well but you need to ship the physical hardware (the dongle) with your scenery. At least it does not require an always-on internet connection and the hardware can change. This is also harder to crack (disable the license check). One dongle can provide more kinds of licenses. So if you are able to pursue Condor developers to ship a dongle with Condor V2 then they can provide you with a service where your scenery license could be added to their dongle.

GregHart1965
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby GregHart1965 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:39 pm

Thanks thats interesting input. I also thought of just shipping dvd with protection on them which would require online registration and validation of purchase before it can be installed. So no purchase no install. Problem is protecting it once it is installed. Hard hashes sound interesting, a purchase would be valid even if a user moved to a new computer. Normal procedures could be followed there.

phercek
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby phercek » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:38 pm

If you ship out-of-spec protection DVD then they may not work well in some drives.
If you ship spec compliant DVD then users can make a copy.
My opinion about DVD protection is that it sucks. Hardly better than simple serial numbers. I would need to be in a livelihood threatening situation to buy a software package provided on an out-of-spec DVD. The hassles are not worth it.

There are also commercial license servers (where the server can run on the same computer or a LAN or even over internet). They are not very suitable for individuals.

At the end, you are struck with what Condor developers decide to use since a scenery is only a set of data files. Therefore all the protection is the protection Condor executable will provide to sceneries.

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BOD1
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby BOD1 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:09 pm

Simple (sort of):
- Scenery must be adapted to be unusable as-is (cyphered, ...) and recognized as pay scenery by Condor
- When user buys a scenery, vendor asks to a central repository (Condor, or Condor Club?) for a serial and gives it to buyer
- Buyer enters it in Condor, Condor checks the serial with central repository (the serial is then linked to user id+scenery id+vendor) and unlocks the scenery (the scenery is still cyphered on disk, but will be decyphered at loading)
Uros/Oxo have to develop this house of keys.

Weaker:
- Condor Club is notified of User XXX has bought scenery YYY and is then enabled to download/upload FTR/FPL/... Unauthorized use of scenery could lead to Condor Club's banishment.
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Capricorne
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby Capricorne » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:10 am

There are already enough problems with the activation of plane pack, if we also need to activate the sceneries on each computer change, we will not fly fly a lot.... :oops:
May be we will also have to pay for Plane reparations...? or for PDA , MC or vario, since this will be an option in basic plane...!!
Next steep will be paying entry for "On line competition" like in real...
For sure the best way to have a new Born-dead game..

David R wrote:That said, most of the sceneries being made right now are in violation of copyright laws. This use to be a big deal, but now no one seems to care.


And this is certainly the main reason why you can't not sold sceneries....
Ps; have buy all Cadafel sceneries, because it's a real work, not just an automated process to produce Google sceneries..

My 2 cents

phercek
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Re: Copyright protection of sceneries

Postby phercek » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:25 pm

Capricorne wrote:May be we will also have to pay for Plane reparations...? or for PDA , MC or vario, since this will be an option in basic plane...!!
Next steep will be paying entry for "On line competition" like in real...
For sure the best way to have a new Born-dead game..

Well, if it helps funding Condor development and therefore getting new versions sooner than in 10 years then it may be very well worth it. It is not like you are forced to buy the game. And the price can always be lowered down to even zero if the game (or its extensions) does not sell. Notice almost all the steam games. Price starts at about 60 and drops down to 20 over years. And people still pay for DLCs. And it does not seem to be a problem for customers.


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