Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

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Polewka
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby Polewka » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:59 pm

FlyingEddieOM wrote:No possibility to recovery after collision. Excuse for lags and high ping isn't enough. Ask firstly yourself why you fly such close to another glider that you allow mid air collision.

Pings and Lags aren't excuse... For us from the other side of the world there is absolute NO way to get pings under 200-250ms... And for some time, few months ago, I had tremendous lag. For some times I had a fellow participant some 100's m away and 2-3 seconds later we had a midair. Is this too close?...

Don't know why I'm arguing, with the present schedule it is impossible for me to fly (and also for most (working) pilots from the Americas).

I wish you a good competition.

Cya
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Freebird
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby Freebird » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:01 am

FlyingEddieOM wrote:Hi Marek

still there is no reply about Q option for midair collision?

No possibility to recovery after collision. Excuse for lags and high ping isn't enough. Ask firstly yourself why you fly such close to another glider that you allow mid air collision. Just look out of cocpit. In real life you havent got such things like Q.


Eddie


There is a problem with that, a safe pilot can be taken out by someone making an unsafe entry into a thermal like pulling up hard from underneath & colliding. I have had it happen to me & the first thing you hear is the impact. In that case a pilot who was doing nothing wrong has his competition wrecked.

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby 22 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:41 am

boycot...is it death of Condor...soon I will stop my all activities in Condor World, because ....! Frrench will be happy!
Your work (you had 2 years) virtual comp (year event) you are doing idiots from regular Condor pilots and I will not respect you...fuck you Dear Mr. President.
©22

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby robyfly » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:11 am

22 wrote:boycot...is it death of Condor...soon I will stop my all activities in Condor World, because ....! Frrench will be happy!
Your work (you had 2 years) virtual comp (year event) you are doing idiots from regular Condor pilots and I will not respect you...fuck you Dear Mr. President.
©22


like always Marek take fire instantly :D but he's absolutely right!

I don't understand why all new comp organizer DON'T TAKE A LOOK AT PREVIOUS GREAT COMPETITIONS RULES before to
write new ones based on his only thought... we have to discuss about the same rules every time just because organizers
are young in Condor world or not informed

There are many and many and many discussions about competitions rules and there are some basic rules where ALL
are agree

Please Prievidza organizers, make a research about it before write definitely rules otherwise many will not partecipate or
your competition will be unfair
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maymar
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby maymar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:19 am

FlyingEddieOM wrote: No possibility to recovery after collision. Excuse for lags and high ping isn't enough. Ask firstly yourself why you fly such close to another glider that you allow mid air collision. Just look out of cocpit. In real life you havent got such things like Q.


Eddie but in real life you can watch around your cockpit without any problem and doing it fast. In Condor it's problematic - i have only hat view and move view from left wing to right takes few seconds. I hope that you understand me.

BTW
Eddie have you ever fly in Condor in one thermal with 30 gliders?

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Andrzej Czop
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby Andrzej Czop » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:58 am

I think that Mark has big experience in organizing competitions in the Condor, and each of its attention is valuable.
For me it is not such big problem (I prefer to fly their own paths :mrgreen:) but for many people this is a problem.

I hope Organizers will understand that.

(sorry for my poor english :oops:)

Regards
Andrzej

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby macsimc » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:03 am

Just a few words,
If someone make some rules why don't you guys just accept them or don't participate ? All the times only complains ...
I didn't have an collision in 1-2 years, if one thermal get's crowded and I can't keep an eye on the gliders near me i prefer loosing a few seconds and jump to another thermal.
You guys are 'playing' only to win? My opinion is that in gliding more important is the competition itself , enjoying the flight together and testing your limits.
There's still life after condor ... if you crash you can watch a movie or something with your family/friends, and look forward to your next race.

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby FlyingEddieOM » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:05 am

OK Guys. I give up. You will have option to recover from mid air collision. But it want be cheap you will receive 200 penalty points for doing so.

The reason why I Dont want mid air collision recovery is simple. It is not due to lags, pings or any other technical problem. It is more about that part between seat and joystick. Arogance in condor competition flying is enormous. It can spoil whole flight therefore I have stop to fly online. There is always some idiot who is capable of knocking you down from sky after nice long 300km XC flight.


I have also change my mind about possibility of second connection to server. You will have only one attempt. If disconnected just continue offline and then send FTR. IF your computer crashes then I am sorry but you will not receive points.

Eddie

edit: PS: Marek do you think that you are some kind of King of Condor hill??

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby goshawk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:36 am

Hm.... So..... Errrrr....GRRRRRRRRRR

Check this situation:
I fly on a server with 31 another pilot. I stop under a cloud to climb.
Someone come under me to climb in the same cloud but he do something wrong and
collidie me while he is behind me where I CAN'T SEE HIM. My plane damaged and had to use
Q so I get 200 point penalty.

What do you think is it fair against me?

If this rules will used for the competition then I will join to the server and after join switch off my internet connection.
And I will fly alone the task.... alone flying in a competition.... hm.. maybe better to not fly.

edit: check this picture and imagine that thermal when you have pilots from usa, japan brazil and other countries where PINGS are HIGH. viewtopic.php?p=104084#p104084
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby Pit_R » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:38 am

You're discussing about mid-air... but what about other aspects of competition realism?
I asked on 1st page of this thread about realism principle...

What time servers will be starting? (imho SBC'10 had very good scheduling and worth to use their experience maybe...)

It is very unrealistic to have few timezones with exactly same weather... Esp. if realism is main goal and it is serious comp. based on RL comp. ...

Can we change plane type/model during comp? Or we need to fly all comp. the same?

?!

What is your main goal in realism?
To reproduce very similar weather (to RL) in Condor or rather to reproduce average task speed of the day with more or less similar weather?
How you want to avoid too fast results in Condor compared to those RL?


I know both are not easy (coz of simple C. wx model). Both same time - almost impossible (highly depends on RL cond. of the day).

Asking, coz as I saw, u wanna start 1st server the same time as in RL. Let's say 11AM... But what d'u know about weather for that task? :/ And this task race.
About average speed for given task?! How u'd expect it? Unfortunately you know course only... at 11AM.

IMHO in C. RL tasks can only be re-produced post factum: when u know what was happend during task, what av. speed was gained, what weather mainly was etc etc.
Maybe (I am sure) in next C. version we will have realtime RL weather data transmission in C> (as it is e.g. in X-Plane). So such task started same time could be matrix for evening session...

So, imvho, in very short, if realism is the key:

- one* evening session with
- little weaker compared to RL thermals if in RL wx was great, and
- little better thermals if in RL wx was really crap

So => tasks in C> will not be 160 km/h for std and not 78 km/h as well...

P.

*Yes, I often can't fly all days too - that's life...
BTW If tasks will be RL, maybe RL scoring (not always 1000) would give a little more chances to someone who pass one or two days?!
Last edited by Pit_R on Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby FlyingEddieOM » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:03 pm

to Janos:

have you ever read VFR rules? You should exit termal 300meters under cloudbase. You are violating this rule and entering this part on your owen risk. Do you want arcade flying or as close to real as possible?

to Pit_R:

you asked lot of question. I will try to answer it one by one. If I missed some I am sorry it was not on purpose.

What time servers will be starting?

3 timezones are enough I think and also the server which starts at "11AM" will be running again and again till next day briefing. So you will have 24 opportunity to fly the task. If there will be huge amount of pilots from e.g. Pacific timezone I will make server just for them. Its no problem from my site.

Can we change plane type/model during comp?
Changing type of glider in world class :D feel free to do so :D (only joke)
Changing type of glider in standard class is alowed but I dont think that any one will do so there isnt big difference between them.

What is your main goal in realism?
Mine main goal is to show to condor comunity how real competition looks like and how difficult is for pilots to compate very single day. Weather is very difficult. Our meteorogilst is sitting next to me and we are discussing every single aspect of it.
He is creator of famous weather service for glider pilots. http://flymet.meteopress.cz/eindex.php

How you want to avoid too fast results in Condor compared to those RL?
There is no possible way how to make it. I cannot simulate coming cold or warm front and wet or dry diabatas. As you saied condor model is too simple for realistic weather.

Thanks for you advices I will rethink whole competition. It isnt bad idea indead.

1000p for task because calculating task coeficient and maximum points for task is difficult. There is rule about more then 2.5hour task and more then 300km. I simplified it that for very single task points will be 1000. But that doesnt mean that every winner receive 1000 points for winning. I tested this scoreing system and it works perfectly. On small task average points for winner were around 300. So that opportunity of getting back to top 5 by winning long and hard task is not taken from you

Eddie

PS: I am also working on tracking of real pilots through condor so I have very soon data about weather. :) I will post link here for watching our HD stream on the net.

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby goshawk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:34 pm

FlyingEddieOM wrote:to Janos:

have you ever read VFR rules? You should exit termal 300meters under cloudbase. You are violating this rule and entering this part on your owen risk. Do you want arcade flying or as close to real as possible?

to Pit_R:
Eddie


First thing
Am I write that I am inside a cloud? I think not. Lol. Let's refine this theoretical situation.

Situation:
CU base is 1600m and I am 800m under CU base in a left circle under a cloud. First in the thermal.
Another pilot see the cloud and decide to climb under the same cloud. He comes high speed and make a big takeover exactely behind me but he not calculated well and he collide into me. My plane get damage and have to use Q.... earn 200p penalty.

If this is my fault then my name is Madonna and not Janos. :D

I think this is very possible situation. I saw it two times on VFC09 and another competitions more times.
If you calculate every task that 200 point penalty is very big. I think unfair against pilots who have to use because other pilots low flying knowledge or internet connection problems. And I can write many situations where this penalty system is wrong.


Second thing:
"You should exit termal 300meters under cloudbase."

Is it a rule for Virtual WGC? That will be interesting how can you enforces it. What penalty for flying closer to CU than 300m?
How can you check that the pilot fly over this 300m line when a pilot is over a mountain where the CU is higher than the base or if you make CU base with medium or high variation.

Little addon: how can you decide - as a competitor - the current cloud base and your position distance.
Maybe this way: this is... this is... this is 400m so I can climb... Oh crap! I guess wrong this was only 250m. 200 point penalty.

I think this rule is impossible to use.
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby FlyingEddieOM » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:02 pm

Jonas that you situation is crazy how often such things happens. You can complain about it all the time. Now it looks like you and Marek are such pilots who dont take care about others and fly like idiots. If you dont like this regulation and you are NOT able to avoid collisions then is fine with me.

About that 300m under cloud base. There is no way how to check it. It is simple VFR regulation. I dont know any pilot who obay that rule. I am only saying that you are entering that space on your owen risk. There is always possibility that some idiot is flying inside cloud. It same in Real life. I dont understand your complains about this. Take that risk, crash, use Q and after that receive penalties. Is that simple. Compare to real life you have one big advantage Q. Such miracles doesnt occur in real life.



Eddie

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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby goshawk » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:14 pm

FlyingEddieOM wrote:Jonas that you situation is crazy how often such things happens. You can complain about it all the time. Now it looks like you and Marek are such pilots who dont take care about others and fly like idiots. If you dont like this regulation and you are NOT able to avoid collisions then is fine with me.

About that 300m under cloud base. There is no way how to check it. It is simple VFR regulation. I dont know any pilot who obay that rule. I am only saying that you are entering that space on your owen risk. There is always possibility that some idiot is flying inside cloud. It same in Real life. I dont understand your complains about this. Take that risk, crash, use Q and after that receive penalties. Is that simple. Compare to real life you have one big advantage Q. Such miracles doesnt occur in real life.

Eddie



Eddie:
I crashed only one time to another pilot in MY FAULT. But there was more than 5 situations last year when somebody make a fail maneuver and crashed me while I CAN'T DO ANYTHING.

You say if somebody shoot a gun and kill another person then not the gun holder is the faulty.
The person who killed. He was at wrong place at wrong time. Am I right?

I hope I can change your mind before you loose many good pilots because this rules.


Another one thing:
Multiple zones good but take care of the cheaters. There was many tasks where I saw many many connections with FAKE names. The biggest was when there was over 160 pilot who tried to fly but only 30-40 real fly submitted.

edit: From me this was the last try to help with the rules. I would like to help but I think you not want my help. Sorry for annoying. I hope rules will be clear and acceptable for everybody and public (publicated on the website) before competition start.
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FlyingEddieOM
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Re: Virtual World Gliding Championship 2010 Prievidza.

Postby FlyingEddieOM » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:44 pm

Are you nuts???

Shooting someone with guns is on purpose. Do you recon that the glider pilots aiming for another pilots to "shoot" them down?
I dont thinks so. I will not change that rule in any way. I already make step back and alow recovery with Q

Fake accounts. I cannot beleive what I am reading here. You become so paranoic. From your point of view is the best to not makeing competition at all.


IF PILOTS WANT TO CHEAT THEY ALWAYS FIND WAY HOW TO DO SO.


Eddie


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