Condor 2.0 off topic

To discuss anything related to soaring or not...

Moderators: Uros, OXO, GR, ASH33M

timbaeyens
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:31 am

Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby timbaeyens » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:40 pm

After seeing this, one can start looking forward to Condor v3...

https://youtu.be/4aqd5eY96pc

janjansen
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:26 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby janjansen » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:36 pm

Its even more impressive once you realize that the entire map you see there was automatically generated. No one laid out streets or trees or houses, outerra engine created that region (in this case, Bern) automatically based on OpenStreetMap data. Only the airport was added by hand.

So yes, for V3, I hope we can have Condor flight dynamics, maybe condor weather engine (outerra might be good too, no idea if it implements slope lift, thermals etc)) with an outerra -or similar- terrain engine. We'd basically no longer need sceneries, just about every place on earth would be flyable. And your house would likely be in there!

sisu1a
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 9:07 pm
Location: Bay Area, California (USA)

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby sisu1a » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:34 pm

janjansen wrote:Its even more impressive once you realize that the entire map you see there was automatically generated. No one laid out streets or trees or houses, outerra engine created that region (in this case, Bern) automatically based on OpenStreetMap data. Only the airport was added by hand.

So yes, for V3, I hope we can have Condor flight dynamics, maybe condor weather engine (outerra might be good too, no idea if it implements slope lift, thermals etc)) with an outerra -or similar- terrain engine. We'd basically no longer need sceneries, just about every place on earth would be flyable. And your house would likely be in there!


Outerra is incredible,... but that's not how procedural generation works. You could fly an 'earth-like' planet, but it would not be Earth. To recreate real life/existing places still requires hand crafting, the literal opposite of of the procedural generation which outputs out fractals of elevation data and details at random/semi random to fill a landscape.

It's possible procedural generation aspects could be applied to making an advanced scenery/megamap of Earth (unifying all the separate sceneries into a single map) to fill in the spaces between the hand crafted areas or even to flesh better populate 'wild' areas of our normal maps, but if you wanted things to look like existing places I'm afraid there's no magic bullet. At best photoprogrammetry and lidar data could augment that process, but then we're into NASA/ESA level equipment and manpower.

http://www.spar3d.com/news/lidar/drone- ... cal-guide/

For the foreseeable future, map making will continue same as it has, but our modern spec computers can handle much higher resolution than was being targeted in previous efforts. 4096 texture should be min spec now...

janjansen
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:26 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby janjansen » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:15 am

But its precisely how it works. Its not random or hand created, the scenery in that video was generated based on openstreetmap data
From the youtube comments:

Bern was added in Outerra in the last update (http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?t...42555#msg42555).
It's an early demo of the OpenStreetMap implementation in Outerra. OSM is a world database of roads and buildings locations, kind of like Gmaps but open and community driven. The buildings in this scene are from World2Xplane, a model pack created by TonyWob for Xplane and converted by Levi for Outerra (with authorization). It's a placeholder since Outerra doesn't have a lot of buildings yet.

The only hand-made part of the scenery is the airport visible at the end, made by Uriah and me, it's not yet something the generator can handle. But everything else (roads + buildings position) is generated from OSM. The devs are still working on the importer, once it's ready there will be a global dataset release for the whole world 


Of course its not going to be 100% "photorealistic", I dont see skyscrapers or railways (although the map data contains that, so it could be possible), but its perfect for something like condor.

User avatar
xavierpitz
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:08 pm
Location: Sarreguemines, France

Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby xavierpitz » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:44 pm

Hi guys,

I just noticed an interesting post from user "Golden eagle" on the french forum :
http://www.condorsim.fr/communaute/view ... 10#p159410

He spotted following video on YouTube :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aqd5eY96pc

It can give us a good idea of what Condor v2 could look like if it was using a "modern" rendering engine.
In this case : http://www.outerra.com

Interestingly enough, the two main Outerra engine developers are based in Bratislava... Slovenia, Slovakia...
http://www.outerra.com/wcontact.html

The ASK13 3D model is pretty well done in this video. Wasn't the ASK13 planed as being a two seater from Plane Pack 3 / Condor V2 ?
The format of the messages appearing on the bottom left corner also reminds me of something...

Maybe... maybe ? Nah... I'm probably just extrapolating to much...

Regards,

Xavier
Image

janjansen
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:26 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby janjansen » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Yes, you are reading too much in to it. As I understand, the ASK13, like most planes in outterra, is a "community" addon. You'll find the weirdest vehicles, including star wars speeder bikes and x-wing. I also asked the creator of that video if outerra supports thermals, ridge lift etc, and the answer is: not really. Although it could be scripted, and they did do some static thermals. Add to that the clouds in outtera that really dont look good IMO, the alpha status of outerra and I rate the chances that condor V2 uses outerra engine roughly zero.

It is something that might make a lot of sense for V3. But since V2 is taking over 10 years, V3 might as well be based on quantum computing :).

User avatar
dgtfer
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Marseille - france

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby dgtfer » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:27 pm

..
Last edited by dgtfer on Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
dgtfer
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Marseille - france

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby dgtfer » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:29 pm

As Outera is in Alpha state since 2009, I think we'll have Condor3 before a final release.
Image

Pegazur
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby Pegazur » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:14 pm

dgtfer wrote:As Outera is in Alpha state since 2009, I think we'll have Condor3 before a final release.


Lol...considering that Condor was launched 12 years ago (4 years before Outerra) and that Condor V2 is still a dream ans is not available today (2017), V3 might be able perhaps in 2030 ????? :mrgreen: :lol:

Pegazur
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby Pegazur » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:15 pm

dgtfer wrote:As Outera is in Alpha state since 2009, I think we'll have Condor3 before a final release.


Lol...considering that Condor was launched 12 years ago (2005) and that Condor V2 is still a dream ans is not available today (2017), V3 might be able perhaps in 2030 ????? :mrgreen: :lol:

BenFest
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby BenFest » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:46 pm

Outera is something really interesting. As soon as Flight Simulator People will join, we can expect something really special.

It will be interesting for Flight Simulators like Prepar3D or X Plane. Condor never has been something like "Open Wolrd", even though some people tried to :D
I think it was the plan to continue a never get old game like Condor1 and improve until everyone from the Team will be happy about Version 2 :)
Ben Fest
D-2701 - BF

User avatar
dgtfer
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Marseille - france

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby dgtfer » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:37 pm

Outera and other similar 3D landscapes engines are certainly interesting, specially for their ability to create details in close distance views, ridge flight could be really impressive:
O4[1].JPG

but for distant views, the effect is not better than Terragen textures, because you don't see small "fractal" details and the massive object integration, to enrich this textures.
O3[1].JPG

O8[1].JPG

Elements from OSM data are very scarce compared to the huge mass of information contained in good resolution photographic images. And adding manually some of these informations is a very hard work, while results are quite disappointing.
In fact it should be better if we could integrate automatically generated close details in photorealistic sceneries.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Image

pstrzel
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:02 am
Location: Utah

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby pstrzel » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:58 pm

Texturing is one thing, elevation data is another. Ridge flight will not feel more realistic until the use of higher resolution elevation data is possible and implemented. I guess the workaround would be an algorithm that "fakes" it, by creating a pseudo-random elevation detail for each 90-meter square for the purpose of tweaking the wind near ground. I'm not sure how Outterra works in that respect.
Image

janjansen
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:26 pm

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby janjansen » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:42 am

pstrzel wrote:Texturing is one thing, elevation data is another. Ridge flight will not feel more realistic until the use of higher resolution elevation data is possible and implemented. I guess the workaround would be an algorithm that "fakes" it, by creating a pseudo-random elevation detail for each 90-meter square for the purpose of tweaking the wind near ground. I'm not sure how Outterra works in that respect.


Outerra implements fractal resampling to "fake" details much smaller than the elevation data (down to cm scale).

As for using photographs; Im not convinced that is either necessary or even desirable. Its an "easy" fix to add details, but its inherently limited, by resolution, the fact you have only 2D data, shading is a problem etc.

I actually think the way forward is what outerra is doing, by layering openstreetmap data on top of elevation data. The amount of information in OSM is pretty staggering, its not just roads, rivers, it includes information on forests, types of trees, individual houses, pastures, .. Have a look yourself:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/

Go to you favourite gliding field and check it out.

Of course, you might want to add details on top of that for some area's, say buildings on the airfield or something, but why not do that in OSM ? I can easily imagine a layer in OSM describing vegetation (may already exist, not sure), so you can define a certain field as having lavender, corn or potatoes. And then have the 3D engine render it, even appropriately for the season of the year. Have some harvesters driving around in harvesting season, why not? Anyway, OSM could become your map editing tool, benefiting everyone else who uses the data, and benefiting from everyone else's work.

User avatar
dgtfer
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:49 am
Location: Marseille - france

Re: Condor 2.0 off topic

Postby dgtfer » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:46 pm

There are so much more informations in photographic images! trees affected by the fire or a local disease, the traces of foresters' work or quarries exploitation, the different tones of ocher tans, the hedges in the bocage, the various colors of houses roofs, the swirls marked by alluvial deposits In the bays, the oyster farms in their basins, sand traces left in the snow by the last sirocco wind,...
All these elements attract our attention when we fly over a region, and that create the diversity of the landscape.
I'm afraid that purely automatic rendering is hopeless for that.
Image


Return to “Off Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests